No One Wants Bad Things: Desire in Plato’s Meno | Noah Chafets | First Friday Lecture

What does it mean to say that no one ever truly desires bad things, and why does Plato’s Meno build so much on that startling claim? In this First Friday lecture hosted by the University of Chicago Graham School, Noah Chafets examines a brief but remarkably dense argument in Plato’s Meno in which Socrates leads Meno to the conclusion that no one wants bad things. Beginning with Meno’s attempt to define virtue as desiring beautiful or good things and having the power to acquire them, Chafets shows why Socrates thinks this definition fails: if everyone desires good things, then desiring them cannot be what distinguishes the virtuous from everyone else. Chafets carefully reconstructs the structure of the passage, laying out the commitments Meno is drawn into and the categories of people Socrates methodically rules out. He explains how the argument works in stages, why Meno ends up abandoning the claim that some people knowingly desire what is bad, and how the conclusion that “no one wants bad things” is meant to undermine half of Meno’s proposed definition of virtue. Turning from the compact exchange itself to a broader interpretive question, Chafets suggests that Plato’s dialogues often work not simply by presenting doctrines, but by provoking readers to do philosophy along with them. In that spirit, the Q&A extends the discussion to Socrates’ tone, the role of knowledge in desire, modern cases such as addiction and suicide, corruption and collective goals, and the larger stakes of Socratic moral psychology. Key questions explored in this lecture: -Why does Socrates argue that no one desires bad things? -Why does Meno’s definition of virtue fail? -What assumptions about goodness, harm, and benefit are doing the work in this argument? -How can someone pursue something harmful while still aiming at what seems good? -Does the argument depend on an implausibly rational account of human action? -What does this passage reveal about Plato’s broader treatment of desire, ethics, and moral psychology? -Are Plato’s dialogues best read as arguments with conclusions to accept, or as provocations that train readers how to think? Chapters 00:00:00 Introduction and event opening 00:00:59 Graham School and Basic Program overview 00:04:01 Introduction of Noah Chafets 00:05:06 Why this short argument in Plato’s Meno matters 00:06:10 Reading the passage: virtue, beautiful things, and acquiring them 00:09:28 Why “desiring good things” cannot define virtue 00:10:55 The eight claims Meno is led to accept 00:14:36 The three-part structure of Socrates’ argument 00:17:03 Common objections: simplistic, contradictory, or naive? 00:25:00 Reconstructing the argument step by step 00:33:05 Five kinds of error in pursuing what seems good 00:50:52 Why desire remains desire for the good 00:58:43 Plato’s dialogues as provocations to think 01:02:16 Q&A begins 01:06:20 Q&A – Addiction, suicide, and harmful desire 01:11:19 Q&A – Corruption, corporations, and collective goals About the Speaker: Noah Chafets is currently the Cyril O. Houle Chair of the Basic Program of Liberal Education for Adults. He holds a BA in philosophy from Vassar College and a PhD from the University of Chicago’s Committee on Social Thought. His dissertation is about desire and motivation in Plato’s Gorgias and Republic. He has taught high school students in Boston and Shanghai, and taught undergraduates at the University, primarily in core sequences in the Humanities and Social Sciences, for a decade before joining the Basic Program. His interests are well represented by the texts in the Basic Program’s curriculum, but also extend to contemporary ethics and practical philosophy, aesthetics and film. About the Basic Program The First Friday Lecture series is presented by the Basic Program of Liberal Education for Adults. The Basic Program is a four-year certificate program for intellectually curious learners who want to read and discuss the Great Books in a serious, welcoming community. Through close reading and weekly conversation, students engage works of literature, philosophy, history, and social thought by authors such as Plato, Aristotle, Dante, Shakespeare, Woolf, and Morrison—guided by outstanding instructors, with no prerequisites, tests, papers, or grades. Offered online and in person, the program invites adults from all backgrounds to deepen their thinking, broaden their perspective, and join a lifelong community of readers. Learn more at https://graham.uchicago.edu/program/basic-program-of-liberal-education/ About Graham The Graham School is a one-of-a-kind intellectual community that brings the best of the University of Chicago to lifelong learners who are seeking discovery and discernment. Through an array of distinctive programs and courses in the Great Books, the liberal arts, and advanced leadership, we welcome learners who seek to deepen their understanding of the world and lead examined lives of purpose. Learn more at https://graham.uchicago.edu